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Subject: Semantics and Political Science
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Fiery Darts
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01/17/2008 11:58 PM  

Last night (Wednesday, 16 Jan), I watched The A Daily Show with Jon Stewart.  His guest was Jonah Goldberg, author of Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning.  The interview quickly digressed into a gentle shouting match where Goldberg insisted that the terms used by liberals like Hillary Clinton to describe their political philosophy are historically tied to the fascism of the 1940's and Stewart trying to invoke Godwin's Law.

The essential problem with the discussion was that Goldberg was interpreting the relatively imprecise language used casually by politicians in light of the far more precise meanings that the same terms take on in formal (usually academic) literature.  Does Hillary Clinton want to institute fascist policies?  I don't know, but I'm sure that I won't be able to find out by trying to read meaning into her choice of words.

I bring this up here because there is a strong tendency for people at this site to get hung up on the perceived meaning of words, usually applying an interpretation that was not at all intended in the original.  This happens most often (or noticeably?) with the word "democracy" and its derivatives.  Formally, the word "democracy," when used without qualification, may be interpreted to mean a system where all decisions are made based on the preferences of the majority, usually determined by a vote or some other means.  This is perceived as being unacceptable for various reasons (usually the official argument is that it is contrary to the way things were laid out in the Constitution), but outside of a political science classroom, nobody uses the word "democracy" in that context.  In public discourse, the word is used to describe any system of government where a large number of citizens are allowed to make decisions about the government, usually in the form of voting for their leaders.  In this context, the term "democracy" is not at all inconsistent with the Constitution, either as originally written or amended.

My point is that petty arguments about what people really mean based on the underlying meanings of the words that they use are not useful.

P.S. This also applies to phrases.  The most notable example is of the identically worded but differently capitalized phrases "New World Order" and "new world order" that apply to a (secret?) world government and international peace and cooperation respectively and are not equivalent to each other.

mulhollandj
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01/19/2008 7:55 PM  
I mostly agree with you on this one. He presents a rather weak argument. Perhaps her word choice is based on what people want to hear. Doesn't that sound dangerous.

The meanings of words do matter, especially over time. Take the word Welfare. Since the Constitution the meaning has changed. So, when the meanings of words change does that change also have an effect on the contracts that they are part of. I say no but it does effect the general understanding of an only partially educated public. Many government programs have based justification on the new meaning of welfare instead of the old, at least this is true in the understanding of many citizens.

Does the change in the use of the word democracy change how people view justification of laws? I think it does. I was talking to a friend who told me that the government could do whatever it wanted as far as the laws were passed in congress. See a problem with this? This is a democracy instead of a republic and the rule of the majority overrules the agreed upon contract called the Constitution. And democracies fail as the majority soon realize they can loot the public treasury. Sound familiar?
Fiery Darts
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01/26/2008 1:49 PM  
Mulholland, you have fallen into the very trap that I described. You've started getting hung up on the words that are being used to the point of ignoring the ideas behind them. People use the term "democracy" to mean a wide variety of things, but the key issue isn't what words they use but what is or isn't better policy-wise.

You don't want to get into a deep semantics discussion because you won't be happy with the results. Just remember, almost every time the word "constitutional" is thrown around on this board, it's being used incorrectly.
nonleft
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01/27/2008 12:35 AM  

I have just one question. What happened to just using the right terms for things to begin with? Would it be proper to say "rape me in a blanket" or "wrap me in a blanket?" That is about the same level of difference when it comes to a democracy vs. republic. I'll choose the latter of the two both times thank you very much

It is true that most people don't hang around in the political science classroom but their apathy in such matters is why many people also blindly think the United Nations is the great savior of the world.

mulhollandj
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01/28/2008 7:11 PM  
Mr. Darts, if you get to choose what words mean then what good are contracts such as the Constitution?
Fiery Darts
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01/29/2008 11:05 PM  
Posted By nonleft on 01/27/2008 12:35 AM

What happened to just using the right terms for things to begin with?


This question would be more reasonable if each word in our language only had one meaning that could be implied by it.  The whole problem here is that many words have multiple meanings and, except when a need for clarity requires it, are used without the qualifiers that indicate which meaning is intended.  It's usually implied by context instead.

Thanks for making a comically reactionary comment about the difference between democracy and republicanism.  The coda of anti-UN knee-jerkage was the perfect garnish, making your whole post a delightful treat!

mulhollandj
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02/03/2008 4:25 PM  
Yes but contracts can only be written the meaning of laws at the current time. Future use of words cannot be anticipated. So when people look at the Constitution and say such a program is authorized under certain wording in the Constitution should we first not check to see if that word had that possible meaning when the document was written?

You sound as bad as Bill Clinton trying to change the meanings of word to justify his lying under oath.
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